Well no. I bought when it was low and sold at 450. So the best thing that can happen to me right now is to see price going down like hell so i can buy again =D

But if btc prize go straight up I won't be mad, it will still be good as I always keep a few btc that I don't trade. But I want action  

Dude... calm down maybe?
You express your interest towards btc stability and high prices. I express mine towards volatility.

There can be no perilous times for btc unless a major flaw is discovered so I don't really understand what you're trying to tell me...

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Down a bit. Much better. Isn't it much more fun to have a crazy ass market that can go down 30bbucks in 6 hours without any fucking reason? 

That's why btc can't be used in a global and daily way. But that's also why it's so cool and fun to invest in.

Well it means if you have the choice you'll always use a more reliable currency.
Swiss franc rise was a huge shock for the market. It's the consequence of a sudden decision of the European bank nothing else. It was exceptional, unexpected and a good counter example but happens maybe once every few years on the whole continent.

Whereas BTC up and down happen continuously and without any reason 
The rises and downs have no explanation, it just... Happens xD

That's why it's always funny to see people trying to guess the next move!

GG
I wish I had more to invest when I bought at 325. "Only" 500$ profit here, but I sold at 450, didn't want to take the risk to go down.

Now let's take our breath. It's too risky to open anything right now I'd say, it needs to move a bit in order to be able to predict anything (while praying satan cause you never know if you're right concerning btc)

So you say. I'm not saying you're wrong though. It's probably true cause I don't see any reason for such an announcement to be made so suddenly, without letting the people and companies some time to adapt.
But I'm still not too sure. There is no proof of your accusation and the rise of the Swiss currency didn't lead to a massive bought 5 seconds after the announcement, it took time for everyone to realize so i don't think there was a hidden company corrupting the European bank behind it.

Unless it was a much longer term operation and some well connected people/organization had bought billions of Swiss francs the year before, but on a long investment so nobody can link them to it.

Anyway, conspiracy conspiracy... I like it 

WTF? WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK???
Danmark is supposed to be a civilized country!
"Hey dude, you know those people coming from a 4500km far country by feet? Fleeing death, war and horrible poverty? Let's take the few things they may have been able to bring with them. It will help them integrate our society better."

With France becoming a fucking dictatorship, where can I flee? ><
The world is going down so fast...

I agree. I find it incredible that nobody cares about the fact that btc is literaly produced from nothing at an incredible rate.
This being done mainly by quite huge companies of industrial farming. I'm not sure we're heading towards satoshi dream.

Which would actually be a good thing, leading people to stop trading and only invest in product/companies they believe have a potential. And yes I trade. But it's not because I do something that I can't understand that it's not exactly a good practice.

Wrong wrong and wrong sorry.
There are not "hundreds of thousands of traders". There are only few big companies sucking the investments of thousands of people "trying". 98% of traders are just normal people trying to add some profit at the end of the month, and they don't. Cause you can't beat the experience and the equipment of huge companies of trading.


No. Perfectly and totally wrong. The only kind of trading that would be impacted would be the one of the ultra short term investment. People and companies actually investing in something wouldn't even bother something so small.
Most traders NEVER create ANY value in their whole life. They just steal the money from someone else. You're saying it would ruin the economy? I say it would cure it! Maybe we would stop exchanging around a hundred time the ACTUAL quantity of corn produced in the world. Maybe it would lead the market to stabilize a bit and stop killing farmers in the world slowly only because some big companies want to trade.

Just think a bit. What is the real use of a trader to our world and economy? Nothing. Traders shouldn't even exist. Their only purpose is to buy something and sell it higher. They produce nothing, bring no additional value to anything. They don't allow a thing neither.

And their is a real difference between investment and trading, they have nearly nothing in common. Investment means you trust a product/project/idea and decide to support it so you bring money to the team. Trading is just taking an existing product or company and betting on the raise or fall of its value. Sanders measure wouldn't harm investors, you don't invest in a company if you believe its value will rise only about 0.1%... It would just destroy the Forex, and I don't see how it would be a bad thing.

Give me just ONE reason to keep Forex alive. ONE thing the traders and trading companies actually do for humanity.

Thanks dude.
I trade sometimes, mainly because I have no faith neither in our society or our government so I don't really feel guilty about it. But it doesn't mean that I am not aware of the fact that when I earn 200$ profit on a trade, it means someone somewhere lost 200$ to. I'm just stealing (legally but still).
So if a government wants to regulate that and limit the profits of the REAL criminals of our time, well I can't say anything but yes. I'll earn less money, but that will be for the best. It's like the taxes, I don't like paying them, but that doesn't mean I can't understand that it's thanks to the taxes I currently pay that I was able to go to school!

PS. And I like your vision of Jesus 

I didn't miss. You're talking about maybe 0.01% of amount of trades. Yes it exists but who uses it? And it doesn't matter, it would be better to have ONLY investments).

And it will not be negative as, as I said, your just destroying an intermediate. You don't destroy any value, and the amount of money that was "won" in trading was also "lost" in trading (because for you to win 100$ in trading someone must have lost 100$ in trading.).

 The money will just go somewhere else. Suppressing companies that produce nothing and provide no services can't have a negative effect on economy, it's just not possible... Even if "The tax envisioned to generate additional tax revenue will actually result in a net decrease in tax revenue due to other sources being cut off." the tax will be won somewhere else because the money spent on trading will be spent somewhere else...

You're all talking about the invisible hand. Which not a bad thing in itself. You mean traders are the way for market to regulate itself, which not wrong.

Now think it the other way around, what does happen when a market is ONLY about self-regularization?
I have nothing against the fact that traders gives the value of things, when they ACTUALLY buy and sell things. But they don't, they just bet on rise or loss.

Not even 1% of exchange are real, they're not "value conquistadores", they're just plain parasites because they don't have to use real things to bet on.

Decentralization is good when you talk about real products. When one will really buy 1ton of corn at a price and sell it back at another price. When you exchange 10000 times the amount of good produced in the world, you don't set the value of anything, you just create "value" from thin air.

No. Not at all. The fact that you're saying that means that's you probably never produced anything in your life.

The baker buy primary resources, add their skill, their time, their energy and their effort to create something new that worth more.
What do traders do? They buy things that don't exist, in order to sell them on a higher price to other people who expect to do the same. It's basically a huge Ponzi scheme. Most of the time nothing is exchanged and nothing is produced.

I don't understand your question I'm afraid 
You'll buy something then sell it immediately, paying the broker fee and the market gap and the tax. Bu I'm not to sure about why you would do this ^^

Thanks for your awesome argument sir!
My world of pure imagination and the subprimes crisis and every single farmer in the world seeing the value of what they produce going up and own without any reason around the year, want to thank you for your open mind. 

Price discovery is when you actually exchange goods that have an unknown value. Not when, by multiplying the amount exchange by 100 times the actual amount of goods EXISTING, you create fluctuations without any reason that have a huge impact on the life of real people. I'm not saying that trading should disappear, I'm saying that the current trading should. You want price discovery? Buy and sell. But buy and sell real things, in real quantity. Then we'll talk.

Ok I'll try to explain it to you in a more simple way.
-If 100 tomatoes exist in the world, and people buy and sell them, sometimes you'll see difference of prices, but it's not wrong because they won't be incredible, they will be easily understandable and will be predicted, at least in a certain measure.
-if 100 tomatoes exist in the world, and people buy and sell 10k tomatoes, the fluctuations will automatically be stronger, less comprehensible and less predictable. But not less important upon tomatoes producers.

Damn I don't understand... don't any of you have heard of trading in real life? How come you can tell that they have an "important value addition" compared to people that actually produce things?!?!

Imagine, tomorrow all the traders disappear. What would happen?
Weeeeeeeeeeeell.. Nothing much in fact.
Farmers will sell directly to other companies which will sell it to the baker. Same goes for everyone...

I see no need of traders here.

Ok I won't bother replying you. If you're a totally pro "liberal market" we probably have nothing more to say indeed. Just open your eyes and look at the world and what liberalism and capitalism without control has brought us in the last decade.

But I'll answer to those who don't understand why traders are useless.
If something is exchanged 1000 times (and that's currently the case), it creates 1000 opportunities for the price to change.
And traders don' fix the "right price" they don't "help the market to find the value of things". They increase the price and take the profits.

If traders earn 1000$ from a trade, who pays the 1000$ ? You, the consumer.

I don't understand how you can't see this!

And as you all seem to be so pro liberalism, here the graph of the gini index, used to evaluate inequalities in the society. The higher the index, the higher the inequalities.

http://images.google.fr/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.les-crises.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F07%2F01-indices-gini-1.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.les-crises.fr%2Finegalites-dans-le-monde-3%2F&h=854&w=1267&tbnid=u4StMVeV6TqpGM%3A&docid=dvFeoa38LMGobM&ei=kJt6Vqq_H46Naqbjv4AP&tbm=isch&iact=rc&uact=3&dur=1219&page=1&start=0&ndsp=25&ved=0ahUKEwiqx-fBhfLJAhWOhhoKHabxD_AQrQMIIDAA

I hope you'll appreciate how incredible the invisible is in fixing inequalities. The more liberal a country is, the stronger its gini index rise. Only France managed to reduce inequalities, but hey! We got to take example on this incredible country the USA 

Oh.
Well yeah I did, obviously, like I was going to let the last word to you, it would mean I admit being wrong (which I don't). 

But I've got to say that you surprised me. Sorry for my assumptions upon your ideologies, I forgot we're on the deep internet where all the strange people are 
I've never met someone saying that.

I can't say I totally disagree with you on the fact that we probably don't understand the reality. Maybe you're right saying that the only solution would be to let things go, which is a bit anarchist by the way 

I hope you're wrong cause I'll never be able to just let things happen. But though I don't believe in the same thing than you I see your point.
Sorry for the violence of my words. I just hate liberalism and people following this stupid ideal based on an infinite growth in a finite world!

Kiss with love from France 

I have no intent to be frustrated and don't feel like I am being so.
But I disagree on the need of the map. If we don't draw a map each other and discuss which map is better their is no possibility to plan the future path we'll have to take to reach our goal.

Though, it doesn't mean we have to confound the map and the territory behind it. To put a name on something is not to close the door, but rather to admit that, in this infinite world of infinite variations, we can still create arbitrary delimited territories, each having their names and characteristics, though being able to recognize that there is no real border. It helps the discussion to take place on a common base, and to focus on what seems important.
It allows us, on the contrary, to talk about those failures, see we don't put the same name on it and wonder why, because it might be relevant. Once we admit that we're talking about the same thing, though calling it differently, we may proceed further in our debate.

"So what to do?".
Sadly enough I don't see much to do. I have few hope in our world and our future, but it doesn't mean I don't like to talk about it, in the hope to find people willing to do something about it.

And when the total number of cars in the world is 1000 and the total number of cars sold by traders in the world is 46 000 what it the use of the vast majority of traders and trades?
Cause that's exactly what happens with lot's of ressources. 

"The big picture"...
Best argument ever. It just means "nah bro, you can't understand that's too big for you".
I'm tired of answering something that is just obvious. You find normal that a product is exchange 46 time before coming to the market? You don't understand that the more you exchange a good before actually using it or producing something from it, the more unpredictable and volatile the price will be?
If you can't understand that then I can do nothing for you. Go buy your bread that's made from flour exchanged in average 30 times before reaching your baker, and that would certainly be much cheaper without all those exchanges.
If you do understand that the more steps there is between consumer and producer, the more volatile and dangerously irrational its price become, then you'll understand that I have nothing against the notion of trading, but against the fact that you exchange goods that don't exist, thus compromising the real price of this good.

#edit: the fact that you edit your post doesn't make more your point. You seem to have a high belief in the whole chain of production, putting on an equal foot the supplyers and the producers.
Maybe the word "produce" is not the same for you than for me, but for the Oxford dictionnary it is: Make or manufacture from components or raw materials.
I think I strongly understand the word produce thank you.

Oh my god you just can't say this it's too stupid  

You're whether trolling or plain stupid. As if all actors had all the same information and there was no externalities xD

Oh sorry. I'm really sorry I used precise words to talk about precise things.

My apologies I'll stop talking.
I bid you all a goodnight  

I said I wouldn't answer but I have 3 minutes last so I'll correct your lack of vocabulary and logical reasoning.
No teachers don't produce anything. A baker produce something, teachers don't. They have an influence on the development of individuals, I see no concept of production here. Otherwise the word is perfectly useless! We're all producing things you know with your approximate definition?
Production means transforming physical goods in order to create another one (normally) of higher value.
It doesn't mean teachers are useless but it does mean it's incredibly hard to evaluate their impact and their performance. Whereas it's rather easy to measure to quantity and quality of bread the baker produced.

So no I'm not the one who "doesn't even know what i don't know" sir.

That's sure it won't. I mean why would a law made to make it less easy for big companies to take the money from people pass in the USA? This is america after all, USA have the same inequality in wealth than the Quatar, the first developed country in term of repartition of wealth.
But hey, why doing anything about it? 

We mean that the word production leads to something that actualy produce something and not just arbitrary value creation such as what you're reffering to 

Ahahahahah!
That's so true it hurts xD

Just careful people.
You know everyone is here saying things like "omg we gonna reach XXX$ soon". But lots of people say that all the time. And 99% of the time they're wrong.
Damn the number of people who said we gonna reach 1k$ before the end of the year...

Agreed. That's why I closed everything at 450$, and I don't regret it ^.^

Yeah but I could run for the presidential. Wouldn't do a big difference.

Lots of people would disagree with you bro. You're basically saying the more we are the smarter we get. Numerous scientific studies are explaining the contrary! It all depends of the way you canalize things, and it can be done very badly.

Free market would have the same consequences in btc than in real life currency. I don't want to get the same thing here than outthere :/

Dude I don't know a thing about you but it's Bitcointalk. Users are prompt to judge and insult each other, most of the time without the beginning of a reason ^^

True, stagning price is good for reliability of btc but I just can't stand it anymore xD

As a non American not following American election cause I don't really give a fuck about your country (no offense though, you can't care about everything) I don't really understand your point. Could you explain?

Meh.
True.

But how? 

648.99?

Dude I don't know where you find that... I mean I know btc is going up and all but 650$ well i never saw that. Don't know what you're talking about...

I don't understand the point of this...

Which explains why I don't see the point of this "innovation" xD

They are good questions but that can be applied to each and everyone trading ^^

These are limits you put yourself. And lots of time they're rather shady, dependents on your state of mind and the moment!

I fucking agree!
People are always here claiming "it's going to the moon" but the truth is nobody understand a thing about btc trading, too many people have too much influence on it. It's totally unpredictable.

I sold at 450 just because I can't stand the idea of btc going back to the 300; without a reason. And people saying "it's not possible" are just idiots, is there any reason why the price suddenly skyrocketed at 450? No, well it can crash without any more reason!

You know there is no difference between "no reason" and "not having a clue about the reason". From a personnal perspective it is the same result. Now if you have the reasons, please go on and spread your knowledge. I tried to open a topic about this question but the thread was invaded by people like you insulting me and going on a rempage "you're just saying shit about bitcoin". Lots of people who invested in btc are not even able to discuss about its legitimicy, cause you don't have the right to suggest that btc has flaws or that maybe the price isn't right and should be a bit lower, no you only praise for a rise. That's all what you have the right to do  

If there is a reason, then go on and give it, I would really like to read it and if you're convincing I'll even buy btc again. But the only thing i found was people like you, claiming FUD and insulting. Btc community in fact... Insults and scams, what a charming currency.

Dude, where did you see me crying for help and freedom?

Just explaining that your post is not only useless but also insulting, which makes you a pure and noble asshole  

And if you don't want to give reason for this price rise then... What is the point of your post? You're here only to say "ahahah you're shitalking"?
Well go on if you want, I just tried to give you the opportunity to actually SAY something. But if you don't mind being totally useless in a debate, feel free to continue  

Choice that I take. What you call ignorance I call it open minded, question of perspective isn't it?

Of course the burden is mine, but I can still talk about my doubt about price moves no? Otherwise why is this thread here?

And you don't have to explain anything to me if you don't want to, but that makes your post even less interesting that what you're claming is my "shitalk". Cause you only say "blah blah blah FUD blah blah blah shitalk blah blah". Not very interesting isn't it?

Yes, thanks for removing it! We get enough of this nazi show during the elections, no need to impose it on a daily basis 

So you're trying to convince me that because 42% of French vote fn (which is not the case, 42% French who voted voted fn, but with 50% of abstention it really puts the thing in perspective) that it's not a freaking facist group? So that's how you define facism? When enough people want it it's no longer facism?

Well sorry but when a political party is led only by one of the richest French family (FN is a brand you know? It belongs to the Le Pen and they earn money every time it's printed somewhere, they take the money from the political party but that doesn't make people think twice about giving their money) where you get kicked out if you ever question the leader, I call that a fascist party. It's the very definition of fascism in fact, nothing to do with racism which is something else though as stupid as fascism.

And you're saying Marechal Le Pen is like a “guru or a mystic”? Waouh! I really want to vote for her now, let's all vote for the great guru Marechal!  

I see no difference between those people and the godwin point or Donald Trump for example, they're quite similar in fact.

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat? What is that???

That's freaking cool xD

Though I feel a bit insulted, it's just too funny 

Such awful writing common sense. Le sigh

*You* didn't say it but YOU quoted it without putting it in any other context. Which means that you take the "guru" assertion for yourself. If I quote Franklin saying "Those who give up their liberty for more security neither deserve liberty nor security" without adding anything, it means that I take what he said as an assertion I approve.

And I see that you fire a lot on Marx or socialism (though you can actually be neither marxist nor fascist you know, it's not FN or Communism, some people actually think in the middle) but you take caution to not answer anything else on the fascist part or the fact that the Le Pen are rather similar to dictators in their party or the fact that they use a brand (FN) for the political party, which allows them to earn a freaking amount of money.

But I suppose spitting on socialism and immigrants is always easier than seeing what banks and capitalism do to you and our country every day =)

by the way "Ce n'est pas parce qu'ils sont nombreux à avoir tort qu'ils ont raison" Coluche.

Why giving the info of how much blocks are filled? I don't really understand the impact and the point of such information? And I absolutely don't see the link with bitcoin trading though it's probably because of my ignorance 

True one. As much as I hate FN, it doesn't change the fact that if a party is supported by 27% of the population, they should be represented in a proportionnal way. If people are dumb enough to vote FN, let them burn themselves!

That's right, it's more or less a question of faith when it comes to bitcoin...

I lost mine years ago but it doesn't mean others will too 

Is it FUD attempt to have doubt? It would be to yell everywhere "sell sell now it's too dangerous" but just saying that it's a complicated situation where one's faith could be damaged is not FUD...

Yeah seems like blocks are full only from time to time, it's not a global phenomenon. So we won't see a problem in transaction yet!

350 seems really hard to reach indeed. And I'd bet that if price ever reached 350$ in those conditions it would crash even further because most people would loose trust in btc. But I don't see how it could drop so low, thousands of people are frustrated enough to have missed the opportunity to buy at 300, they will take any opportunity around 400 so it won't breack this floor.

I believe it's the first time we agree on something JayJuanGee 

I'm not saying everything he says is right (I don't understand everything) but I like the part about the halving is already priced! After all it's something everyone expect so maybe is already priced.
But that doesn't mean price will crash and btc is ended xD

Maybe the price won't rise much more until the halving, even lower a bit after the halving because everyone will dump.

Well I don't know much and it will only go like this if the price is high enough for miners to make profit after the halving of course!

I like it!

Every morning when I check the price is a bit lower! Might be the good moment to buy, not sure it will be able to break the 400 floor no?

Can't he say what he thinks?
I don't see anything wrong in what he's saying. BTC is really shady he's right on that. Users don't have any correct informations you can't deny that.

I don't understand the hate, he's someone who worked on btc and thinks it's a failure and warned people about it, is it a reason to hate him?

Btc community shits on anyone disagreeing with it? Well seems he's right about the community then 

You may have known that, I didn't even know who he is.

Lot's of old btc users seem to forget that most adopters don't take the time to read everything about btc and don't know all that stuff about technical difficulties. It's really frightening and it's making me loose some confidence. But well I don't understand most of it so I won't say anything like "btc is dead" but I can say "btc is really complicated and it's hard for normal people to trust this system".

Seems we won't be able to discuss. You don't seem to understand the position of someone who is not informed. Most people don't have the time to spend hundreds of hours to understand exactly how everything works and who's in charge of what.

"You're not better than him if you defend Hearn" You don't understand. I don't know who he is, he just doesn't seem like somebody bad.

Bitcoin IS incredibly shady in the sense that normal people have no idea of what's happening, what's currently developped, who's in charge of what, what can or can't be done etc...
I'm not talking about drugs or anything that something else. I'm talking about how btc works and will evolve. You're all talking about "bitcoin core" "bitcoin XT" "forks" and things like that. I've no idea of what it is, and I'm an engineer which means i got some basis in science... So btc IS shady in the sense that a small percentage of users actually understand it.

So for you anyone who is not totally understanding the technology is an idiot?

Well I'll join the long list of idiots. But you know what? I think there are far more users not understanding exactly how it works than users fully aware of all aspects. If all the "stupid users" as you say would dump their coins and leave the technology alone, bitcoin would actually die in a matter of seconds.

You all want adoption to become a bit more mainstream, but you can't take into account the fact that people might not want to spend 10 hours a week to understand how btc works, what's developped and what's going to happen...

Yeah but what insurance do I have that it will work and not spoil me of the 2k$ I tranformed into btc?
Cause the airplane answered to multiple official tests and answers to international and national security norms.

What does btc answer to? Nothing.
And as I don't totally understand how it works and what's happening, I'm afraid of using it. And tempted to quit.

TEMPTED!!! Tempted means I doubt that's all...

I don't want to quit, I'm not trying I'm just trying to explain why people are not always confident in btc. Why it's hard to reach a true adoption...

What you're saying is that anyone that might disagree with an aspect of btc and say it publicly should leave?

Well of course, when people really believe btc is dead, price drops. If it appears btc is not dead price will rise again. It all depends on weather you're willing to take the risk or not (because if price drops too much, btc will really die).

Until now it never really died, and with all the economy backing btc it's legitimate to believe it can't die. But remember it only needs to happen once to destroy everything you invested in btc

It's a risk, but I think it should be taken  

Seriously? What does it make your constitution different from most countries?