This is sad, but so true! Yet it can die from another coin. With so much heaviness in BTC, I believe that if for even one day XRP or ETH close with higher market cap than BTC, people will start jumping ship without second thoughs.

Don't you think Bytecoin belongs in this list too? It's name was probably chosen in order to lure in newcomers who wouldn't notice the difference between Bytecoin and Bitcoin.
When I first started with cryptocoins, I remember people calling Bytecoin a scam because of a big amount of pre-mine I think? Not sure.... nevertheless I see that the price has some possitive action the last months so I don't know.

Since you mentioned this... what would happen when a coin is fully mined? What if BTC survive for many more years until there is close to 0 coins to mine? In order to sustain a profitability either a lot of ASICs would have to shutdown or the tx fees would skyrocket in order for the miners to receive the fees as rewards (and technically they wouldn't be called miners anymore!)

Has this been confirmed to have happened to any other coin?

I prefer my pizza "clashic"!

That's one interesting article!
http://www.livebitcoinnews.com/study-claims-bitcoin-price-manipulation/

However they just mention that spoofing and/or washing could have been used to manipulate BTC price, but the article doesn't mention how did they run this study.

What is defined as shitcoin though?
For me copy/paste coins that offer nothing more than a blockchain and empty promises for the future are shitcoins. Among the "just blockchains" which only transfer coins from one address to another, I only accept BTC/LTC/XRP as real coins because they're widely used by people and even accepted (or used in the case of XRP) by businesses.

I also hold ARK, ETN and RVN which I consider "start-ups with good potential but some risk to turn into useless shitcoins"... draw your own conclusions!

What do you think about Bitcoin not breaking the support 5500€ / 6800$?

I'm not very confident that this will be the bottom, there was not enough panic selling and FUD imo! Maybe we'll see a break of the support first, then a bull run for new highs can start.

They don't seem to know of ‎BTCP though!
Other than that, it has the exact same opinion with me! :O It's positive on ARK and ETN, which are my main holdings along with XRP. For XRP they stay neutral.
Also the Bitshares (BTS), Verge (XVG) and Litecoin (LTC) comments are on point!

The only one I've found to be in dissagreement with my opinion is the Blockport (BPT) which is a semi-decentrilized-social exchange where the user holds the private keys and you get paid for being followed in social trading (having users copy your trades). Maybe because it's currently in closed beta it's mentioned as shitcoin, but as long as they deliver, this is going to be helpful to the whole crypto market because it has the potential be a good and safe exchange. Oh and it's based on ARK's ecosystem!

Here comes the last price crash! Brace for impact people!
As I've been saying, we need to fall bellow the 5.000€/6.600$ in order for the bears to be satisfied, only then can a new bull run start (I'm reading here and there good fundemental news about crypto as well)

Any time now those who came late to buy BTC from the top while hoping for easy and quick riches will have sold all their coins... and when there are no coins to sell, there are no more rapid sell-offs.
Hopefully those who buy from the bottom are stonger hands because otherwise we'll be stuck in a consolidation for a long time.

I love this market ... it's full of exaggerations! First every shitcoin is pumped to moon levels just because someone publiced a whitepaper full of empty promises. Now every legit coin has been trampled under the groun along with the useless shitcoins.

This is what happens when there are very few real investors/traders and only greedy people who rush after quick wealth. Hopefuly the governments will manage to agree on fair regulations that will help secure the crypto-economy, which in turn will attract real investors.

It's funny how the media is throwing the ball to ETF delays. Like having ETF and making it easier for manipulators to short Bitcoin would bring any benefit to crypto-believers like us.

Sure, whoever started this dive timed the selling with the news about the ETFs, but only in order to confuse weak hands and intensify the confusion and panic.
What I don't understand is HOW is someone able to manipulate the market, whenever they decide to sell they make it so people will panic sell driving the price lower. When they're happy with the lower price they buy so much that a spike is created and people go into FOMO mode, driving the price higher only for the manipulators to repeat the circle.

Even though I'm an experienced forex and stock market trader, when I tried to trade some Bitcoin futures I got for free (signature campaigns) I got beaten from the market.
For as long as there are people trying to trade Bitcoin instead of HODLing it, manipulators will keep playing with the price.

https://www.newsbtc.com/2018/08/08/fud-fueled-crypto-market-dumps-25-billion-in-24-hours/

We're 9.5% down in 24 hours?! Is that how much we fell? REALLY?!

The thing is, they can't print new BTC like they can print new dollars, so this would surely end bad... most likely for the users.
And as I think you said, even if they can borrow non-existing dollars and send you these, the bank will accept them; But a wallet won't accept non-existing BTC.

Wow I just checked his tweeter feed for the first time.
His tweets should be kept in colleges' databases as examples of how propaganda works, we should help the new generations become immune to that!

Wow I didn't know Bitmain is going for public listing on exchanges! So we now have the chance to either short Bitmain's shares and gain on their fall instead of shorting BCH? Both are the same things anyway!

Just kidding... don't risk your money shorting Bitmain... They have showcased their readiness to work in any underhanded method as long as it benefits their wallet. I'm sure they will be able to manipulate their earnings since a lot of their money is in cryptocoins. Hopefully they're not holding BTCs though, I want to hope they've done selling BTC to buy BCH and they won't drop the BTC's price lower after it goes up a little.

There were no news and whales wouldn't panic-sell, so it was obviously manipulation with a bit of panic maybe. It probably has to do with futures and stuff, I have a general idea of how the rich ones can get be winners by combining futures with actual bitcoin buying.

I think the steps are,
You buy futures
You buy BTC in the market with many $$$ driving the prices up
You sell your futures and then short some too, take some cash
You buy even more BTC from off-market trades, thus not driving the price up on yourself
You then dumb all your BTC in one go, droping the price like it did today/yesteday
Cash on your short position futures

You take some loss from the actual BTC trading, you gain a lot from the futures.
The solution to that is, DON'T TRADE FUTURES. You ain't gonna with these guys.

Found an interesting article here: https://techcrunch.com/2018/09/13/its-the-end-of-crypto-as-we-know-it-and-i-feel-fine/


I feel the same for most of the author's points. We who are here for the long term shouldn't care for the prices. I've bought some coins and I was planning to cash on some of them on 2019 to buy an ultra wide QHD+ Gsync HDR monitor using BTC instead of dropping 2000$. Bought some XRP as a saving account, planning to save them "forever" in my hardware wallet in case I ever need money for a special need. Bought some ARK which is a delegated proof of stake coin in order to build a slow passive income for the future.

So what if the prices spiked on 2017 and then fell on 2018? If I had 1BTC on 2017, I still have 1BTC on 2018. I'm hoping for a broader integration of cryptocoin payments from shops so as to not have to turn my coins into fiat and instead use them for purchases... so 1BTC will always be 1BTC for me!

I don't see any special rally in altcoins. On the last 24h BTC is up 6% and I see some serious altcoins at 10%-15% and some shitcoins at 5%-10%. Didn't the altcoin market follow BTC down in the first place?
Sure, most altcoins should stay down, but I'd expect a correction to happen after a day or two. Right now this rally seems like it's built to last and people are going FOMO mode on everything.. and personally, it's the first rally I call it's going to last.

Dumping is for the dumb!

66666.66666$ Maybe?

Yes, thanks for that indeed! I didn't expect Google's stock to fall bellow 1100$ either but here it is.... just what the h*** happened with everything yesterday? Did every investor liquefied their investments of every aspect?
Cryptocoins are down... Stocks are down... Gold is flat... I was expecting a fall in the stock market which is why I was slowly putting my money in cryptocoins since this summer, but I didn't expect Google, Nvidia and all coins to fall that much.

You're suggesting that the fall in the US stock market is in correlating with the fall on cryptocoin? But in my logic this sell-off should have boosted cryptocoins and gold prices because the money which left the stocks should have gone somewhere. Did everything become cash? Or did the investors who withdrew money from the stocks are waiting to enter the same market?

In any case, I don't think the stock market and the blockchain's prices are correlating.

Like buying Apple's stock before they announce a new iPhone was not stupid enough, will we now have to buy BTC before HTC announces a new phone?

Don't we already have a poll for that? I mean... on top of this thread... and it resets every month (I think it's month)!

I don't margin-trade any cryptocoin, margin-trading is fine with stocks and fiat currencies which are moving slowly, but if you margin-trade crypto and especially low-market-cap coins you...

I can't even open it because it requires me to register an email so that they can brainwash me keep me informed of the economic situation!

Edit: Nevermind, for whatever reason it opens from PC but requires email in the mobile version of the page... Too lazy atm to check if I had done something stupid!

Weren't there always reasons to hate this atrocity? Though... I don't think the fall has anything to do with BCH.

People wondering what's happening today, are confusing decentralised governance with decentralised prices.
Most coins have decentralised governance by their nature, but it'll take some more years until BTC becomes price-decentralised; right now few people control a lot of wealth and there's not enough liquidity to support the price, one whale can manipulate it as they want it.

As for today's fall, I don't believe Dr. Clown did it, he most likely wanted to make people FEAR that he might have tanked the market and that he has the power to do it again, that's why he tweeted this (https://twitter.com/ProfFaustus/status/1062751765601361923) AFTER the price had fell.

Buy NVDA stocks before they report earnings later today, wake up rich tomorrow and buy crypto in stupidly low prices!

For me it's more scary to catch a flying rocket than a falling knife!

PS: I forgot the reply tab open for about 30 minutes and 21 new replies have already been posted!

That's not right. If a project is young and its coin's market cap is low, then its upside potential is higher than a higher market cap coin.

To prove it with an example, say a small project has a market cap of 1mil $. An investor who will throw 1 million $ on this coin will increase its price by 100% (doubling the coin's price)
If the same investor would throw the same 1 million $ in BTC which has 66 billion $ market cap, the increase in price would be a drop in the bucket.

However, we can argue that BTC would draw more investors... the thing is that no matter how you look at it, we're speculating here! If someone is investing in small market cap coins which he has researched and believes that they have potential, then that's a high-risk high-reward play. It's definitely not the same thing as investing the same amount in BTC.

I would even merit you if I had enough!

There are also another reason people sell at those prices though, and that's margin-calls for people who trade BTC in margin. I don't know why would anyone do that... margin trading in an already high volatility market makes no sense to me! It's probably only addicted gamblers who do that.

But there are such services and if they exist, it means that some people use them.
Unfortunately that's another reason for the market makers to drop the prices, trigger the margin-calls of people who though that the price would NEVER drop after a certain level, and grab their money.
That tactic is hard and expensive to perform in the usual Forex market with fiat-currency trading and shares, but in a low liquidity market where whales exist, it's theoretically still easy to manipulate the market. I'd give it at least another 2 years before the wealth of BTC is more evenly shared and the price is less prone to manipulation and sharp movements.

What's the whole deal with the hats? What have I missed?

How is the weather in your country people? Here in Greece we have a good weather (for winter that is).
Whenever I open Coinlib in a tab to check the prices and I see stupidly overdone declines, I just close the tab and focus on other things.... well.... lately I've started to notice the beauty of flowers!

I think alevlaslo meant Bitcoin as Ethereum's competitor... it's the false thinking that every coin is a competitor of each other. Since Bitcoin is falling, there are a few people who believe other coins should rise, but most of us understand why this is not how things work.
I don't think Bitcoin has a competitor though, it's like the father of every coin.

As for Ethereum, its only real competitor for me is ARK. ARK supports Smart Contracts on Javascript, Go, and Solidity, it connects different blockchains together with Smart Bridges, provides (will provide?) easy to use plugins for sidechains and forks, lower/dynamic fees... it's everything Ethereum should have been losing only in fame!

... sorry ... I went bit off-topic!

The hats will run out of fashion and I'll still won't have understand how did they start!
Did someone started using one as an avatar and people just copy it or does it have a deeper history?

No that I can wear one... it took me 10 months to get 84 merits and I'll need another 2 years for the rest 15 now! But I'm still curious.

Right now they can suppress Bitcoin's price with futures because there's very little investment going in BTC. It's not hard for the wealthy to outplay and outbid the teenagers who buy a few Bitcoins.
As I've stated here (and I also made a graph): https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5076475 there are a ton of money in other kind of investments which could possibly reach Bitcoin at some point; stocks alone have about 800 times more money invested in them than all the cryptocurrencies... not to mention that most coins' market cap is artificial.

If more money start to go in BTC, then at the very least those who are trying to suppress the price will have to do so in a higher level, they won't be able to keep it in ~3000$.

By "2019 should be the year institutional capital flows into cryptocurrency” I wonder if they mean they'll buy real coins from the market (aka exchanges) or if they'll buy/short futures!
What could it be.... what could it be...

Also the weather in Australia seems to be getting better: https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/dec/19/christmas-day-weather-forecast-to-be-warm-and-dry-across-most-of-australia
Everything is clear, it's rally time guys! Hope in!

Disclaimer: This is not an investing advice

Take a moment to think what wayna is saying.
If BCH/BSV is being pumped, it means that BTC is being sold to buy this cancer. When those will be dumped, they will be traded for BTC (most likely).

PS: I totally disagree that EVERY altcoin is crap and valueless, I'd go with "most".

And this is where XRP comes in, a solution between the centralized fiat with high fees and the decentralized cryptocurrencies with instant and low fees.
Bitcoin is good as a currency when shops accept it, but it has stayed too long in the grey zone of the law and it doesn't have the same software and corporate support Ripple Labs offer.


Really if you think about it, we have about 20-30 great blockchain projects and if we were to support these that'd benefit the whole crypto-scene.
Unfortunately we're too busy fighting among ourselves for which coin is better, which has the best team, which is more decentralized and often we're splitting chains or copy existing projects because so many people feel they are special and they should lead with their own project.

Because of that everyone is losing as we keep weakening BTC to buy into scams and the few great altcoins are lost among the shitcoins.
We'll never replace centralized businesses like that.

Hopefully the price suppressors will take more days off than just the weekend since it's the Christmas period!
In the we'll still go lower though, or at that's what I should believe in order to go up!

Isn't what he's saying clear? He respects Bitcoin's roadmap but he disagrees with some aspects, like for example the PoW... but didn't we already know that? If he agreed with 100% everything in Bitcoin then why would he go and make Ethereum?
Then he goes on to compare Bitcoin with BitcoinSV calling it "dumpster fire" lol

Stock market seems to be going red today... Should we expect the cryptocurrencies to continue the fashion of mimicking the stocks' movements?
It doesn't make much sense to me, but I believe we should.

What do physical metals have to do with anything?
Can I play Axie Infinity using silver? Or can I donate unanimously to an organization sending few grammars of gold through the phone cable? (Though donations are also accepted through BTC... but I prefer altcoins when possible for lower fees)

@bitserve

I agree with all your points and I'd like you to allow me to add two more point...

Even if there was no fractional reserve and even if all the peoples' money were really existing in banks, we'd have two more problems: security and "precision (?)".
1) The problem of security with cash is obvious, notes can be stolen and centralised digital accounts can be hacked. A successful 51% attack on a widely used blockchain though is not as easy.
2) I can't put a name on this problem but I'll give an example: A bank is holding 10% of a countries wealth in notes. An explosion scattering some in the air while destroys and burns others. What happens next? Do you print the notes again? Do you subtract the missing amount from the bank's own account? What about the notes that went flying? Similar problems in a much smaller scale happen every day, for example having a low value note cut in half or a coin drop in the sewers. I might interpret it wrong but I think that fiat currencies can't work with 0% fractional reserves and money printing, only the blockchain can work without these and still operate fine.


By the way, I'm from Greece, I've been through Capital Controls and we're still under some controls, for example we cannot top-up investment accounts with cards, only through the slow wire transfers.

I see some nice green candles! However I won't believe for a bullrun until we a day closes with +50%.

I was also fascinated by how small the crypto-market is, and yet how high we've gone.
Look for example these charts: http://money.visualcapitalist.com/worlds-money-markets-one-visualization-2017/

Before I found the above article, I tried to make my own chart as well (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5076475)

Being a relatively newer BTC fan, I though I'd visit a few random pages of the past in this HUUUUGE thread and see the reactions of people from past rallies and selloffs, so here are some quotes, enjoy!


BTC Rallies up to 145$ during the April 2013



It falls to 83$ on May 3rd
(This is golden!!)


And on May 6th it indeed went up at 123$, but on May 8th it fell a bit at 112$ and...


On November we had a huge rally without a correction; On November 9th BTC was at 359$.
(Some articles praised BTC as a great investment)


On November 19th BTC hits a peak of 750$. People were mixed back then.


And the next day it crashed to 482$!


However these were 1 to 2 days sell-offs, not a year long bear market like today. People use to be optimistic when the sell-off lasts a few hours or a week.
Even though I've selected some posts that show a sentiment opposite to the price's direction following a few days later, many others were showing an optimism after every dip.

I buy them... on summer when we grill on the garden.
They are an excellent paper to start the fire! They also give small gifts some times!

I am the opposite, but not because of BTC... because of US stocks trading.
Since 2016 I've been buying every 5%-15% dip in the stocks, mostly Nvidia, selling at every 25 points of new ATHs. Big success which I then traded for some BTC this summer through fall.

I tried to buy the falling knife through October-November again... but... let's say I was lucky to hold a short in AMD... still ouch!

Nobody cares but I stayed out of the market for a week or two and then bought back in at 135$ and 125$ ... was also waiting for 115$ and 105$ but it didn't reach... maybe at the end of January?

I do, I'll quote my thinking from my previous post so as to not repeat myself,

Okay time for conspiracy-theory! This is mine,

They want to use the ETFs to manipulate the price by buying futures before buying millions of $ in BTC to raise the price, then they short the ETFs and sell all their BTC to crash the price. Finally they cash out on ETFs.
Combine this with the manipulation of news and you can see how the rich can control everything.

Their only problem is that Bitcoin's futures don't have much volume right now, so they can't do a multi-million manipulation... they would only trade against themselves.
This could change with the approval of ETFs, but before that they want to buy as many cheap BTC as possible to have something to sell after they short.
So what I'm seeing right now is that we're in the phase they're accumulating, but in order to keep the prices low they're playing with the news and control the SEC's approval.


One way with which they might have managed to drive us in this situation is by making people believe that ETF = Moon.
This propaganda was easy to spread, they were ready to buy a lot of Bitcoins the moment the news of an imminent approval to raise the price and ready to dump them when they'd release news of delays.
After a while people started believing that the Bitcoin's price is relevant to ETFs, but as it's already said....

In any case, people will keep selling their Bitcoins cheap based on irrelevant news.

Unfortunately, THIS IS A WAR and if we want to win this, the first step is to accept there's an enemy; then realise the weapons in the enemy's arsenal and finally finding counters to these weapons.

Now compare that with the 0.50% (at best case) we have in Greece, from which they then subtract tax!

I'm sorry to hear sad stories about how people invested in ASIC/GPU farms and then lost their economies, but this is necessary to happen in order for the market to recover.
People who are willing to pay any price to a centralised manufacturer, build huge farms to outperform other people and pay huge electricity bills will only dump their mined coins... not because those people are evil, but because they have to in order to pay the bills and because they're not thinking long-term.

Think about it... if such people were thinking long term, would they spend so much money to build farms without calculating that many others are doing the same thing and the diff will skyrocket? Would they ignore the bubble levels of cryptocurrencies which at the very least had an obvious danger for at least a small correction coming?

People who can't think like that won't hold their mined coins in order to uphold the principles of cryptocurrencies, they won't care about using their coins to buy products and services instead of using fiat.
They'll only see BTC as a price in $$$ and how much "profit" their farm produces.

Until we get rid of that greedy generation, we'll be in the mercy of whoever is fighting cryptocurrencies in order to keep fiat paper floating.

Can we stop making bullish predictions please? Every time we do that and we reach "that moment" we're going down hard! 
Trading is working with a reverse psychology... so... everyone shout with me! BTC@1$ !! BTC@1$ !! BTC@1$ !!

That's some next level bitcoinism! Actually, there's a word for that I think, but I can't recall it... Bitcoin maximalism? Maxism?
Whatever, the point is, accepting only Bitcoin and disregarding everything else is stupid.
I presume that most people who do that were also calling Bitcoin shit before they see the price skyrocket; because such people wouldn't give anything a chance in their mind until proven wrong.

I was about to post that too but a search sow me you had already done that a few pages back!
Well... seems like the Bitcoin's price will be pumped for a few days, I read many positive articles which ... being posted either naturally or forcefully to create a FOMO.

I'm not expecting any crazy bullruns though, not until there are "only" ominous news and most quick-fortune seekers sell their bags and Bitcoin is again owned by few.

So the poll is over and it seems 17.3% of the voters were expecting prices over $6,000 ! Where is that confidence coming from ? 
We need more negativity before things start going better.... because.. that's how things usually happen!

So the poll is over and it seems 17.3% of the voters were expecting prices over $6,000 ! Where is that confidence coming from ? 
We need more negativity before things start going better.... because.. that's how things usually happen!

But it was "scheduled" ! They tweeted about it 2 hours ago saying it'll be a 15minutes downtime ! *insert trollface here*
It's been over an hour if I judge by the time of your comment.

I had tried to sign up to them but I had some terrible experience, they took 2 months to verify my account and allow me to trade. That was a red flag for me and I never used them after they verified me.

If this graph is correct, then this is going to be another disaster,
https://coinlib.io/global-crypto-charts#global_money_flow

As long as people trade their real Bitcoins with paper TetherUSD, whoever controls Tether can control BTC's price.
I suppose this difference of flow between fiat (USD, EUR, Yuan etc) and TUSD isn't that huge, but I didn't remember to look at it a few days before when the rally started.

Don't get distracted by "the next days or weeks" though, focus more on the "next years".
I believe this pump is at least 50% artificial, I see a lot of TetherUSD trading and I don't trust this thing. There's also the FUD for the trade-war which is causing investors to turn away from the stock market and maybe at some level away from fiat too.

I don't think the trade-war fears will last and when things seem to be getting better, some investors will at least take some profit from BTC and return some cash to the stock market. This alongside the suspicious TetherUSD trading makes me nervous about the sustainability of the pump.
Well, maybe FOMO will trample upon everything in the end! I'm fine with either direction in the short-term.

I'm using this site to see where the volume is,
https://coinlib.io/global-crypto-charts#money_flow

And here you can read articles about the subject,
https://www.coindesk.com/tag/tether

Total market cap has reached September's highs, 25% more up and we'll reach August 2018 highs.

The BTC dominance has spiked a lot though, I don't think it can hold 60%.
I believe the market cap will keep rising but BTC will stabilise at this price for a few days or even weeks, while some people start joining the hype and buy BTC and others take some profit from BTC and are picking good alts which were massacred and are historically cheap.

Not sure what this is supposed to show, but it'd be interesting to see a chart of the BTC/Gold price over the last few years; Especially because the gold prices are constantly falling (aka manipulated by paper futures).

Hehe not bad! Thanks!
And what I wanted to see was the gold/BTC relation during the crypto-winter. It seems that Bitcoin didn't give a lot of space to gold after all, both had a similar fate.
This doesn't make sense to me though, shouldn't either "safe heaven" asset (if not both) flourish during an unstable stock market? I guess since both assets cannot be faked and printed, they have a common enemy who is fighting them both equally.

Nonetheless, it's obvious which of the two assets is more resistant to manipulation/suppression.
Here's a focused chart starting on May 2017, the first month the daily BTC volume consistently reached a billion $.

Margin longs are getting rekt'd ! whoooohoooo !
I would wish no one was trading on margin and instead use real, existing coins instead of theoretical ones.

I randomly found that old post of mine from since the last pump started, reminding me how the ones fighting BTC in order to tame it are playing the people.


I don't know if using alts would bring any benefit since the prices are still tied with BTC's price, maybe having like 5 to 10 different coins with no correlation to one another and banning USDT and other fiat-supported fake coins from exchanges would help.
Unfortunately the main users of crypto are people with little or no idea on how economies and the leaders of this world operate. Sure, there are some exceptions, but even among the whales there are many who became whales by accident and not by knowledge and skills.

I'm sorry for being pessimistic, I guess I kinda feel we're doomed! Yet, I'll keep on holding!!

Aaaand bloom!!! that's how the bull will get drown!
Seriously... bulls can't swim, can they?